Resolutions and mean people.

2009 January 3
by jcastro

I am going to follow this guy’s saga on switching to Ubuntu for a week. I like his writing style and sarcastic sense of humor. However I found the responses to his problems to be all too common these days. The guy had some problems with his installation but in the end triumphed, despite our cryptic error messages. What does he get for his perseverance? People acting like they’re 6 years old typical Linux “evangelists”. Let’s go through these comments, here’s one:

Most users will not try to install to an external drive. I think that “installing Ubuntu was hell” is you fault. My mom (computer illiterate) is using Ubuntu with no prior instructions and doing fine.

Translation: The author tried to install Ubuntu on an external drive and it just sat there and told him “Error 23″ – somehow the commenter feels that this is the user’s fault. Ummm, ok. Next time I visit my mom I will try to replicate error 23 to see how far she gets along. Here’s another one.

You’re taking a Mac-user mentality and applying it to Linux, which is a recipe for failure before you even start.

Ok, I don’t really get what the commenter is trying to say here, except maybe “You expected your computer to work when you installed Ubuntu which is a recipe for failure.” Arguing about OSX’s usability aside (I don’t think it’s any easier to use than anything else, but that’s a story for another day) the commenter goes on to say:

There is no reason to try and do an install of ANY operating system in the way you have just described. Installing to an external drive and expecting the boot loader contained on ANOTHER drive to boot to it without being overwritten is just daft.

I would expect if I had an external drive and wanted to install an operating system on it that it would just work like I wanted it to. Actually I think that’s a kickass idea, having your boot drive on external disk to try another OS; I might try to do that (without being daft of course!) Then another guy tries to give the guy some actual help and so on. By day two he has it working. Turns out that it’s pretty decent for the guy:

In the short time I’ve used it today I’ve found that Ubuntu is easy to use and has lots of neat features. It even told me that my battery might have been recalled and that I might need to replace it, instead of just letting it explode in my face like that jerk Windows would.

For those of you at home, he’s referring to this feature in gnome power manager. (Which is pretty sweet). So despite all this he at least found out he had a bum battery. He goes on to say:

To put it softly, installing Ubuntu was hell. I ran into more problems than I ever imagined I would, and for a moment I thought my computer was reduced to a pretty silicon and plastic paperweight. The simplicity I was looking for was not there, and I’m not exactly planning to recommend that my parents replace their Mac OS with Ubuntu any time soon, given that they would probably have given up when they couldn’t figure out what an .iso was.

Nonetheless, I’m willing to give Linux the benefit of the doubt; I imagine that the majority of users don’t encounter the sort of problems I have, and I’m willing to concede that my hardware is likely to blame for all the peculiar issues. And while it wasn’t an easy process, the Ubuntu forum staff were very helpful and I was able to solve all my problems fairly quickly. Thumbs up for the support!

I like reading articles like this because they remind me why we do what we do. It reminds me not only about the technical challenges that we still need to overcome, but the social aspects as well. Too often people are pointing fingers at “stupid users” who just want to get their computers to work (the horror). Remember kids, it’s always the user’s fault! (Ok, that is a topic for another day)

Kudos to the people on the Ubuntu Forums for helping this guy out. Who knows, the next user might expect working suspend and resume, that would be ridiculous!

20 Responses leave one →
  1. 2009 January 3

    With all the respect to ubuntu, an issue that this guy described with a bootloader is normaly a bug. Installer should put bootloader on the drive where is /boot/ is located.

    There is no ways for grub to boot something, what is located on other hard drive. Even lilo cant do this.

  2. 2009 January 3

    I installed to an external drive for my sister-in-law’s machine when the drive froze up solid. I’m grateful it worked as well as it did. But, I digress.

    This is the one reason Linux cannot succeed – Folks, not everyone is as savvy as you are with Linux, and making Linux easy to install / use is not going to cheapen your experience in the slightest. If you want to strip out GNOME and replace it with the most arcane terminal window manager, feel free. We all benefit from making Linux easier to use and work. Being elitist pricks helps no-one.

  3. 2009 January 3
    ethana2 permalink

    My grandma uses Ubuntu, and she shouldn’t have to know what firefox is to get it to do what she wants. I applaud gnome for the ‘appliance’ mentality, but we don’t take it as far as we should yet. You should only have to know the name of an application if it’s broken. Why on earth would a person think that a flaming fox wrapped around a planet would open a web browser?

  4. 2009 January 3
    ethana2 permalink

    Ope, by ‘we’ I meant ‘Ubuntu’. Obviously the gnome browser is epiphany, which I know behaves properly in this respect.

    That’s all to say that we’re not shooting for the usability of OSX. We’re shooting far beyond it, where Everything just works, not just hardware with one logo on it, where everything Just works, not after you frigging fiddle with it and check forums and irc channels and error logs, and where everything just Works, instead of making you work around it and it’s bugs and poor user interface and lacking features.

    Or as I tell people, I’m just too dumb to use Windows.

  5. 2009 January 3
    Monkeyboy permalink

    Its not just Linux people that have a problem with presentation, you can surf around to any number of non computer related boards and find the same bad attitude. Its just the way the web works, with everyone out of arms reach.
    As to making Linux easier to use/install in my opinion there need to be limits. Most anything taken to an extreme leads to problems. If success is only measured by how easy it is to use then you are going to see more code and higher hardware requirements. neither of those are hallmarks I want to see associated with Linux. IMO

  6. 2009 January 3

    Alex:
    GRUB can boot installations that are on the other drive just fine. And Ubuntu puts everything in one partition. There’s not a separate /boot partition.

    I tried installing to an external drive one time. I think it was Feisty. I ended up with GRUB on the external drive (sdb) and deleted from the internal drive (sda). I had to plug in my external drive to boot the internal drive! That sucked. Since then, I remove my internal drive before doing that.

    There is a bug* still open in Ubuntu on GRUB installing to the wrong drive if you have some IDE and some SATA drives. On my mom’s computer, GRUB installed wrong for that reason. I’m not sure exactly what happened, but the first drive (according to BIOS) was hd1 and the second was hd0. Changing the grub drive map didn’t help. I ended up locking version on her kernel because every time the kernel was updated the menu.lst would break. That was with Dapper, maybe Edgy as well. It’s been fine since then though.

    * https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub-installer/+bug/46520

  7. 2009 January 3
    Cae permalink

    I’ve installed ubuntu onto a usb thumbdrive and the noticed that hidden in the “advance option” is the installation of grub into my hdd. If I didn’t notice and point grub to my usb thumbdrive, I will be seeing a can’t boot up problem as well.

    So if someone can do away with the “advance option” and recognised that this is just another option (like Debian does) that the installer should present to the user and let the user decide (with a smart default, of course:).

    Nothing should be hidden from the user.

  8. 2009 January 4

    There are bugs like the described that have to be solved. The difficulty to properly configure grub in an Ubuntu installation with a machine with more than a disk (and installing Ubuntu in other disk than the first) it a real pain for unexperienced users.
    Other things like suspend and resume are a shame too. The “experience” won’t be complete until these kind of things are addressed.

    However I understand (even though I don’t share the manners) of some people when someone who is used to standard installations of Windows or Mac want to install a dual boot system without learning anything of the basics of that, and claim “my grandma should be able to do that”, as if the hobby of old women would be installing OSes instead of kitting.
    It’s too common to see people demanding things to free operating systems that they don’t even ask in their proprietary OSes (I mean, they are fine if installing a hardware raid in Windows XP requires a floppy disk and several trial and error steps with BSOD included until they find the right driver, but they scream “it sucks!” if Grub did something wrong).

    And let’s face it: The vast majority of people buys OEM or pays someone for the installation and configuration of their computers. Even when the Windows machines are blasted for a horde of malwares, they pay again for the re-installation or cleaning.
    But they want to install Linux without hassle.
    Computers and operating systems are cutting edge technology. Not a VCR.
    There are some things to learn and with free software that’s the price you have to pay to enjoy something that gives you freedom.

    So, ok. I don’t agree with people who call idiot a new user with problems. But I also find quite disrespectful to say “this is a hell”, “say whatever you want but this is not ready for prime time” or things like that.
    With free software you get an incredible opportunity to take part of something new, exciting and revolutionary. In the process you may find bugs, of course. But you can report them, or even fix them!

  9. 2009 January 4

    I will merely note that this is a detailed but non-formally reported usability bug, and we need to fix it rather than shoot the messenger. It’s crazy to want usability tests but ignore external data.

  10. 2009 January 4
    oliver permalink

    From my experience, it’s still not advisable to let a novice user install and set up Ubuntu on his own. There’s the trouble with partitioning and getting the boot loader right with regard to the ubiquitous Windows, and afterwards there’s all kinds of codecs and Flash to be installed, standard workarounds applied for various bugs, and non-standard workarounds for new bugs found and applied…

    In the end, a full Ubuntu installation is really a nice system for novice users: it is simple, has nearly all features one would need, and is resistant against common malware. Perfect for home users. But the installation should be done by someone who already knows the pitfalls and has the patience to work through this. So far, I don’t quite see any change in this.

    Btw. having Ubuntu on a USB flash drive rocks. I found an 8GB flash drive for EUR11 and installed Intrepid on it, together with all kinds of apps, tools, codecs and whatnot to have a full system available. Very useful to check how some laptop would actually work under the newest release, and already have tools available to diagnose problems and find workarounds. The “Method 1″ section at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveUsbPendrivePersistent was very helpful for this – thanks to whoever put this together.

  11. 2009 January 4

    Gez:
    You say that like a VCR is easy to use or setup. I only get TVs that have them built-in because I can’t set them up. Er, well, did. I just don’t use TVs, VCRs, or DVD players now, partially to avoid trying to set that stuff up. That’s hard!

    Cae:
    You got USB thumbdrive to work? UNetBootin and the thing in the menu both result in “Missing Operating System” then it falls back to my internal drive. I contend the whole ordeal is a big load of fail. All I wanted to do was put Intrepid on a thumbdrive so I could run alsa-info.sh and find out what changed from Intrepid to Jaunty that broke PulseAudio for me (and get it fixed).

  12. 2009 January 4
    Belinda permalink

    In case I haven’t said it lately, “You’re awesome!” Great understanding of the hurdles faced by even non-novice users who want to switch over to Ubuntu. I spent way too many hours over my holiday break trying to get Ubuntu onto some netbook gifts for others. This is why buying a system with Ubuntu pre-installed and working (including codecs and drivers) is still the best option for novices. Unfortunately Dell failed to deliver all my orders!

    Forums are good for most things but let more than a day go by and your post can get buried – just wish the various Documentation sites were better coordinated and more in depth.

  13. 2009 January 4

    Mackenzie:
    I have the same problem. That’s why I prefer computers and GNU/Linux. ;-)

    I put VCR, but I could have written “microwave oven” or “blender”. I mean, I do not agree with the popular conception of a computer as a home appliance. Computers are something more complex. Despite most of the people use them for a couple of simple tasks, a computer is more than that.
    Corporations already realized that and that’s why it’s more common to see smartphones and ultraportable computers.
    They aren’t cheaper than desktop computer for the consumers, but they are for the manufacturer. And people buys them because they cover their needs.
    Most of the homes should have a smartphone, a media center and a playstation instead of a computer, and everybody would be happier :-)
    I mean, computers (and mostly PCs) are designed for a different thing. If people just want a household appliance, maybe computers aren’t for them.

    Please, don’t read this as something elitist. I’m not saying “we can use computers, they can’t”. I’m saying that for a person who wants something with reduced functionality that just works and needs no knowledge for its use, computers are not the best solution (even computers with Windows).

  14. 2009 January 4

    Mackenzie, grub can boot kernels from other installation mediums but not himself.
    As long as /boot/ is a separate partition or its just in /. /boot/grub/stage2 file should be *on the same physical drive* where grub installed in the boot record coz stage2 file is a second part of grub application.

    As a homework just remove /boot/grub/stage2 and reboot your pc.
    second task is to read man grub

  15. 2009 January 5

    People who know nothing about an operating system should not be installing it. That goes for Windows or Mac varieties, too. This guy shot himself in the foot. Maybe someone else shot his foot for him by saying “It’s easy to use, you don’t have to know anything, and you don’t need to do anything but put in the CD and go.”

    Grub should work on an external drive, but an OS newbie shouldn’t be installing an unknown OS in a strange configuration. Use vanilla hardware and the most mainstream setup you can get.

    The fact of the matter is Ubuntu needs to be installed by someone knowledgeable in order to get past any driver issues that might crop up. I’d say the same about Windows or OSx86. Once Ubuntu’s set up, there is likely to be no problem.

  16. 2009 January 5

    hey all,,

    I dont see any reason to shoot the messenger either. It’s arrogant and childish not to offer help when someone asks, and if you dont believe that, then you clearly have a ego problem and should just bow out and let someone help who cares, and who isn’t an elitist noob hater.

    We are suppose to be helping each other in this world, not bringing others down while at the same time reveling in our own supposed OS prowess. We might think that makes us ‘cool’ man, but it does just the reverse as it shows how pety you are by wanting to capitalize on someones mistakes instead of helping them.

    This is precisely why linux is failing and has way lower market share than it should ( except obviously on servers ), as very few except for geeks are going to tolerate a prevailing attitude of ‘haha your stoopid , lame and go back to windows’ mentality; they dont have to they will just use the superior, easier to setup and use windows OS, even with the risk of virus attacks ( virus scanners are not free anyway! ) and its because the apps and games they need just work there and they dont have to send time trying to figure out an OS that essentially is pre-relase quality ( all of them ). You can hate windows all you want, but at least its releases are mostly solid , and in part its due to superior QA and a desire by all to succeed collectively, instead of rolling their own all the time thus causing severe quality problems beause everyone is split between them all ; but oh well its free isn’t it . You sometimes get what you pay for , which for some of us is alot of wasted effort where time spent elsewhere would have been far more rewarding ( and usually is ).

    Linux has no chance ( nor does it deserve one , though those using it do ) until theses issues are completely resolved. A house divided will not stand.

Trackbacks & Pingbacks

  1. nixternal » Quote of the day
  2. Boycott Novell » Links 04/01/2009: Big Win for ODF in Brazil, Penguin Awareness Day Coming
  3. Peng’s links for Thursday, 8 January « I’m Just an Avatar

Leave a Reply

Note: You can use basic XHTML in your comments. Your email address will never be published.

Subscribe to this comment feed via RSS